In the second half of Chapter 1, which we did not get to in class, I want this discussion to focus on the ways in which philosophy has/does misused, misunderstood, and misguided educational issues. I want us to focus on issues that are complex like religion in schools, globalization, accountability, and the curriculum. In what ways has philosophy been (mis) used to justify and provide rationale for programs/ideologies?
I would like for you to essentially begin and have a conversation about the second half of Chapter 1 - please use specific citations from your text, make connections with our in-class conversations and your observations in your schools. It is time to start thinking critically and intellectually...this stuff is "sticky" and not easy. Philosophy offers us a way to really delve deeply into some complicated things...
Remember, we are each to post TWICE a week - this should be an easy chapter to discuss - there is PLENTY in there! Also...you don't have to stay on the same topic in the thread...feel free to jump in and out of topics, ideas, references, etc.
Happy posting,
dr.m
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On p. 46 the last sentence of the page says that "students come before arbitrary standards". This was in the context of a teacher giving a papge minimum for an assignment and a student giving a great response in just one sentence. In class we have said many times that each students thinks and learns differently. Some students may take a few sentences to descibe something and some may need pages. How can you test students with one test if you know that each student thinks and learns differently. The philosophy existentialism, states that each child's experience is different and that students should discover their best methods of learning. If we are requried to teach using different methods in the classroom apealing to all different learning styles, then why do we not have multiple test or ways to measure the level of understanding of certain material?
I was reading The Paideia Proposal section and part of the synopsis caught my attention. At the top of page 26, number six says to “eliminate all electives….” Who could possibly think that this is a good idea? I have noticed that in many of the public schools electives are slowly disappearing. One school only has P.E. once every two weeks, and they don’t even have art. Children need time to be active and creative. You can’t expect a child to be focused if they don’t have a chance to express themselves.
To add onto heather's comment, I think it is so wrong for the schools to be eliminated electives. How do you expect a kid to sit down for 8 hours a day with out being able to express their feelings or energy. Electives are the most creative way for student to be able to do those things. At least once a week for electives is good, if not more than once. Hopefully, as teachers we will find time in our schedules to allow our kids to express themselves in whatever way they may feel necessary.
Alot of schools are going with that philosophy but it is not so much as the options not being needed, it is because of NCLB. Due to testing, they have to decide if it is more important the children have art or pass the test. Most schools are deciding the test without realizing art and other electives play a great part in the children learning. They do not have enough funding so they have to cut back.
I thought it was an eye opener on page 37, Inflammatory Rhetoric. Honan wrote in 1994 about administrators not standing up anymore on important topics because they want to "avoid offending potential donors, boards of trustees, or the local political and religious communities. This self-protective silence and fear pervade our entire society and discourage constructive discussions of social and educational issues. Teachers, too, avoid contention." This statement is so true. Nothing gets done half the time because "funding" may dissappear. Teachers are scared to speak up about their curriculum changing (or not changing), so they just go along with it so their students can better be assessed.
To me, this can be compared to Idealism. You get caught up so much in the past and learning the old, yet still important, things that you somehow loose today and tomorrow. The very next sentence on page 37 states "Controversies in the schools over the curriculum, discipline methods, testing and assessment, historical interpretation, sexuality and AIDS education, race, religion and prayer, values, politics and the force teachers to shrink from publically discussing the compelling social issues of out times."
One of my very best friends teaches 7th grade. Her co-worker is a lesbian and the kids figured it out. One little girl asked her about it and she frooze, almost embarrassed. The teachers had to have a meating to discuss this and how to handle it. This could have opened up an oppurtunity in the classroom to speak about diversity, but the group decided that the children weren't ready for that and the classroom was not the place to discuss it. As a parent, I have to agree with their decision, but as a teacher, it would open up the classroom a little more.
I feel that electives are very important for children to have. They need that sanctuary to relax away from the basic material. This place helps them escape from the essentials and go to something that they are really interested in. They need this to get through a week of school. They don't need to constantly stress over the biology test. They need to go to that art class or pe class and just be themselves and fun. Even if these courses arent offered at the school, we as teachers need to incorporate it into our class. We need to make time one or two times a week to let them have this. It is very necessary for young children especially. You will see very positive results from this as well. They come into that biology class much more focused and ready to learn.
In response to cutting back on electives, I completely agree with what everyone has said about doing so isn't the most beneficial. Although, I see with what Tremaine said about having to cut back somewhere, and unfortunately, they're electives because they're not required, so those are cut first. Not only do these electives provide a chance for these students to express themselves and get out energy, often they get to pick which ones they want to do, so it gives them some say in what they get to do in school, possibly making school more enjoyable for everyone, ultimately; if the students are happy and enjoy coming to school, wouldn't that make our job as teachers more enjoyable?
It is ridiculous that so many schools are cutting out electives. Students NEED a time of the day when they can just relax and be themselves. I saw the electives slowly get cut out of my high school. My theatre program which I was very involved in is on the verge of being closed because the school just can't afford it like they used to. I was the third graduating class from my school, and I was shocked to find out that before building the school, the parents voted to not offer shop or home ec. I know a lot of people who chose to go to a different high school in the area because they did not plan on going to college, and they NEEDED that shop class because they planned on entering the marines and needed those mechanical skills. Some electives even help test scores. People who have music knowledge tend to do better in school and on tests. Why get rid of the one thing that many kids look forward t every day, espescially if some of them can actually help them out in the long run?
As reading Shame of the Nation. It has opened my eyes to everyhting that i going on in our school systems today. As for the electives I feel like it is important to keep those in schools. Because I know while i was in elementary school and even high school that going to those classes were the highlight of my day because I could take a break from regular school and do somthing that I like to do. Even some kids in elementary school find out that they do really well in art or music and that could be somthing that they woul want to do in the future.
So not only do electives give us a brak from normal school classes it also gives children a chance to see what they might excel in.
Also about teachers helping studnets find out the best way to learn and study and find out what suits them the best then I feel like there should be different standarized test that gives each the best test that would allow them to excell in the best way possible for them. I know i did horrible on standarized test and maybe having a different way of testing could have benefitted me far more the the regular standarized test.
But what I dont get is how teachers and different school officials see how students that do great in school and not so well on standarized that there is a problem there and somthing needs to chang?!
I do believe that electives are very beneficial for schools cause they let students explore and learn new things in new ways. I remember when I was at the elementary age, I was always looking forward to art, to be able to get out of the classroom and make an art project that was unique and expressed the way on how I viewed things. I can't imagine a school without art classes, no way to express their feelings or be creative and bring something home to mom and dad. My parents actually still have some of the projects that I made in elementary school around the holiday seasons and put up my "masterpieces" around the house. My mom loves telling the stories about them and how I would come home with them. I can't imagine that other families don't get this opportunity of displaying their child's artwork.
I'm going to hit religion/philosophy in this blog. I already knew this but I interviewed a kindergarten teacher Wednesday and her biggest challenge in teaching was quote "teaching the kids right from wrong and not long and short vowels". She says that kids these days don't even care when they get in trouble at school. Our children are seriously missing morality and ethics these days. I'm going to put in a big plug for Christianity here and say that if you are raised in the church you are taught these morals and ethics. Jesus boiled it all down to two basic rules. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Those two principles would make the world a much better place if people would take them to heart. Realistically I know that just Christianity can never be taught in public schools. I think however that there is a dire need for some kind of ethics class for our children. Teachers are constantly having to teach children general concepts of ethics and morality while they teach ABCs and 123s. I think we should develop a class for character building. Kids need to know about honesty, integrity, respect for human life, respect for elders and other people in general, violence is not acceptable, clean language, etc ESPECIALLY if it is not taught at home! These are qualities that make good citizens and IT IS MISSING IN TOO MANY OF OUR CHILDREN! The closest link to our text that this would come to would be Context. Teaching p. 33 with the Eastern Philosophies although it doesn't match up exactly. The idea being that most religions agree on some basic good moral codes of behavior. It was just reaffirmed to me in the interview that our children are being taught "curriculum" to pass the tests but missing what I consider to be some other very important life skills that have a huge impact on society when they become adults.
I always forget something. Just to give an example of what I mean by a breakdown in morality and ethics- my son learned a lesson this week from school (not in school) that had nothing to do with booksmarts. He keeps forgetting to bring home his sweatshirts or zip up jackets. When I ask him (or even threaten worse) if he doesn't bring them home he can't find them at school. I finally had to tell him the reason he can't find them at school is because they have been stolen. If you don't bring home the jacket you took to school that morning kiss it goodbye. That is the state of morals our kids have today. And no it does not matter if you put your kids name inside the jacket. I've been through this for several years now, even looked through the lost and found. Parents don't even return the jackets if they find some other kids name inside them. That is the sad state of things today. Once again I say we need to teach kids ethics and morality because some kids aren't getting it anywhere else.
Chevonne I totally agree with the religion option however it is hard to decide which religion. I think we should have prayer in schools but mention it as a moment of silence. Our students do not seem to understand right from wrong and I do believe it is because we now have freedom from religion. School is somewhere religion doesnt exist anymore and when the children are there, they can escape from it if it is an option in their life. And the thing that bothers me the most is, it seems as if all of our laws are somewhat built upon the Ten Commandments. It will however be a problem with basing it upon one religion because there are many different types of religion coming up everywhere. As it is stated on page 39, "Make no mistake, religion wars are raging.....". Bringing religion back into schooling will be really hard to do.
I feel that religion should be in schools in the way we mentioned in class. Children should learn about all the different religions but not have one forced on them. During one of my observations the teacher was teaching her children about concept maps and to give an example of one the class made a map about the different holidays. The teacher put her own imput on each one they wrote down. The one that stood out to me the most was when she told her students that she did not celebrate Halloween because she thought is was evil and was worshiping ghost. In the mind of most second graders Halloween is about dressing up and going trick-or-treating. These kids do not understand what it represents or how it came about. The children could barely think of what all the holidays we celebrate are and what we do for each. I think that teaching kids about religion and holidays is a great idea but techers should leave their opinion out of it and keep in mind the age of their students.
All the time I hear children say that they can't wait to grow up because then they will be done with school and done with learning. What young children do not understand is that learning is not just done in schools. It is all around us. We learn from our parents, friends, relatives, and almost everyone we come in contact with. On page 47 the textbook says that "learning is an ongoing process and we must create schools and classrooms that reflect that." As educators we need to realize that not only do children learn from what we teach them but they also learn from what others teach them. We have to be able to find a way to incorporate what our students learn outside of the classroom in the classroom. The problem that comes to my mind is that children may not always learn positive things outside of school and how do we deal with this in the classroom when it causes problems.
i am going to agree with everyone here.
electives and religous based moralities definitely need to be taught in schools.
in my opinion electives are an essential part of self formation. children get to find out what they like and don't like; what they are good at and not good at. and regardless if they are good/like it or not good/don't like it they learn about different things in life, learning doesn't always have to be positive, if learning means learning that you dont like something, a person is still learning. art, music, p.e./sports, band, choir, foreign languages, drama programs, and even not well known/existent electives that can be brought in our schools are vital in my opinion to a childs well rounded education.
My mom teaches in jefferson parish, and her school recently became a magnet school (i think within the last 4-5 years). at her school each teacher is required to teach a class of a type of elective; they have some of the common elective ideas like academic games, chess, gardening, yearbook, journalism/newspaper, and drama; but they also have some very different and unique electives that can't be found everywhere. these electives include things such as :
cooking with books (read a story and then cook), class about invertebrates, simple machines (using knex), art through the ages (learning different types of art and then making these different types of art), crafty kids, knitting, project runway (designing clothes with different materials), interior design (diarama of rooms), animation (with computers), medieval fun (with renaissance fair), business introduction (promoting a product), and athletic games (create your own game, play it, and improvisions).
i also asked to see if they require any extra money, and most don't require anything extra (some ask for donations from parents not necessarily in money form: food items/wal-mart gift cards). My question is if this public school can do this, why can't all? Every teacher can find something to teach that interests them, whether it be about music appreciation, crocheting, or public speaking. We all have our own individual interests that can be applied to a classroom, and taught to students to enhance their knowledge. The reasons this is not done are 1- because a lack of funds, and 2- because nowadays we don't have time for lunch and recess, much less electives, a.k.a. things that will not help the children we teach pass the test. And this is not helping our children, it is only hindering them.
Moving on to the religion discussion, I actually think they are somewhat connected. Why can't different religion classes be offered in public schools as electives? That way children can take them if they want and their parents agree, but they are not forced to. At the same time, different religion classes can be offered to compound each other, to show that not only one is correct, but still help form our children morally. I agree that basic religious ideas like the ten commandments need to be taught to the children of our country, however, if people are going to complain, just make sure to offer many different classes to children, and not make it mandatory; in my eyes that is not unconstitutional; that is freedom of choice. it is not being forced upon anyone; it is just being thrown out there if anyone wants to learn.
I think it would probably take a while for people to warm up to the idea, but if kids get the opportunity, you never know... they just might choose to learn about religious ideas. And even if just 25% of america's children choose to take these classes, and therefore only that 25% learn morals of right and wrong.... that's another 25% that might never have learned, and that's another 25% that can influence the people around them as to right and wrong.
in closing (sorry it's so long), i would like to say i agree with aissalynns last post, that we need to find a way to incorporate things outside the classroom in the classroom. i think that this is an ongoing battle of the last few decades. it's not a new idea, and it's not a new problem. We've mentioned this before, and we've even mentioned ways of doing so, we just all need to go out there and DO IT.
i always think about how i want to be one of those radical teachers. who defies rules she doesn't believe in but still is a GREAT teacher to her children, who then maybe become inspired to do well in school and in life. it's scary because if i defy the rules too much and by myself, i will just get fired and someone will replace me and that will be the end. but if i just conform, and do what i am "supposed" to do, then i have done nothing to change the situation our education system is in today. and i know i just can't sit back and watch....
I agree with Amanda, electives need to stay a part of the curriculum in school. No matter what grade you are in, school gets stressful sometimes, and electives are something you choose(most of the time) and they allow you to relax a little during the day.
I have an idea...Maybe have a "Religion class," but during this time, allow the children to research any type of religion that they want (take them to the library, or computer lab-if they have access), and then every time during that class, they can continue to look up information on it, and do a project to teach the rest of the class about the one they chose? I think that would be neat, and it gives them the opportunity to look into many different kinds, and choose the one that fits them best.
I want to reiterate that my idea was to introduce a mandatory character building class not elective religion classes. Our children need to be taught not to lie, cheat, steal, etc. on a large scale. These types of behaviors are slowly creeping in to society as acceptable when they are not. I believe it does have to do with the downfall of Christianity in the schools but I don't think that we'll ever get Christianity back in the scool so we need to do what we can. We need improve the moral fiber of children. This is not something scholastic I'm talking about. This is not them gainig knowledge. It is creating better people out of our children morally and ethically. Making children into adults that don't lie on their income taxes, shoplift as teenagers, or even cheat when they play a card game with their family members. Do you guys see where I'm going with this? There is more to education than just knowledge. These little people need to be molded into decent human beings that will be good honest citizens as adults. It is imperative for all of our common good. They are the future of our society, our politicians, etc.
I couldn't agree with Chevonne more in her first posts about religion in school. While I realize that there is no way to teach religion in a public school, and that there are many people that believe many different things, I think the point about teaching some sort of ethics is very important. Instead of teaching the ethics to the students in the school, why not provide the classes to the teachers and make it mandatory. Possibly having the teachers know how to better correct students for their behavior and how to set up their classes in the beginning to show what they expect could be a better start. I just don't know how well younger students would respond to an ethics class, since many may not know what it means... but if you could break it down for the teachers to have better and higher expectations for their students it may possibly be better.
Wow, Chevonne, you were up really early!! I think the ethics class is a great idea. We had a character counts peried everyday before class began in high school. It was only for about 15 minutes in a separate home room, with boys and girls separated into different classes. Our teacher would talk to us about how we see ourselves and all that neat deep stuff.... it was kinda helpful!
WOW! This is a GREAT conversation - I'm back from my trip and digging out from under a zillion emails -
Here are a few questions about which to keep thinking:
Chevonne's issue of "character education" - does this not assume that there is one dominant form of values? I understand what you are saying...but I also wonder if this is really the school's place? Perhaps rather than "early childhoood education" we ought to be offering community based parenting classes and support groups?
Isnt' there only so much that can be done in schools?
Now, as for electives...how could you justify spending money on "electives" if the school doesn't have money for new textbooks? PHILOSOPHICALLY I wonder how you might justify this?
Even beyond this, when did these electives become "electives"...perhaps, this is our own construction to privilege some knowledge over other types?
In other words, what if "electives" weren't "electives"? Who decided that art was less important than math?
Just some more "food for thought"...
see you in class,
dr.m
Everyone has made some really good points and it has definitely got me thinking about many more aspects within the schools.
During one of observations, I observed a 5th grade class. The students were coming back from lunch/recess and the teacher allowed them to get water. She was going between the hallway and the classroom and some of the students were unsupervised for a few moments. She continuously reminded the students to be individuals of integrity and that it mattered who they were and what they were doing when no one was watching them. I thought this was very important to teach these students and any students. If they are reminded to be conscious of their actions when they are doing something as simple as getting water, these values will carry to other aspects of their lives.
I definitely agree with what carrie said about possibly having a "character counts" part of each day. This would teach the students to respect themselves and help them to be more confident and know they are capable of succeeding in school. It absolutely all about each child's education as a whole not just the curriculum they are being taught in the classroom. If teacher individually set these expectations for their students, the students would know what is expected of them and strive to live up to these expectations.
In response to dr. m's comment about there not be one set of values; I remember in class we discussed how it is very difficult to tell a child that what they did was "wrong" when they tell you that it is acceptable at home. It is a boundary we must establish of what is acceptable at school and then to what is allowed at home. I know this going back to what I posted in the first post, but I think that if it wasn't the schools place to teach the children these lessons, we would only be teaching the curriculum and not giving the children the education they deserve, in turn leaving us being good teachers and not the great teachers we all truly hope to be.
Chelsea made a very good point, and one that reminded me of one of the readings in the reading packet. In "My Pedagogic Creed," the author talks about linking school and the lessons learned in the classroom with the community. That seemed to be a common theme in that reading, and I never thought about teaching in that aspect, but now that I think back to my elementary school days and my high school days, some of the best teachers I had were the ones that did that. Also, I would have loved to have something like Carrie had with separating off into small 15 minute classes to talk about things that matter and making sure that students know they matter. I think everyone can agree with how important it is for students to know that they matter.
And to throw in a side note, at one of the schools I observed at there was a poster on the wall that said "All students are gifted, some just open their gifts later than others." I thought that was a great poster to have in the class, not only for students to see, but also for parents who may come to visit the child's classroom that may feel discouraged. Helping everyone realize this, or at least showing that every child may not find the cure for cancer but they do have potential to do great things, can make the learning environment better for everyone.
This has nothing to do with this topic, but about what we talked about in class. As soon as I got out of class, my dad was telling me that my brother wants to be a P.E. teacher. He then went on to say that he would be better in the medical tec field. I told him a little about what we had just talked about. I just thought that it was funny, and that I would share with everyone.
During one of my obeservations the teacher was teaching the children about historical documents. She told the students what they were and then asked them to give her examples of some. The students did not only give examples but also told stories about them. It seemed as though this was a normal thing. Now not every child was able to share with the class but she told them that she would make more time for them to share the next day. At first I thought that this was just some way to get the children to stop and move on and she would never go back. Then she told them that if their parents allowed she wanted them to bring a historical document to share with the class. This made me think of our previous class discussions on bringing things from the children's lives into the classroom.
This was only a few minutes of the children's day but it seemed to make a difference in the way they looked at their school work. The teacher asked the children various times for their input on lessons. She would ask for examples from the students or would ask them to share a brief story with the class. The one thing that stood out was that even when a student told a story about their own experience when she hadn's asked, she would listen and then thank them. She would then tie their story into her lesson. This made the children want to participate in the lesson.
Since I was unable to attend class this past Thursday I thought I might share with the class some of what I got out of the first reading.
The one main thing that stuck in my head was on pg. 80, the 2nd paragraph where it says "We say we value all honest, necessary contributions equally....". When I read this a light went off in my head. It is something I have always thought of. This is also touched on more throught the rest of the reading. We value a college education and want all children to have the chance to go to college. If everyone gets a college degree and goes on to work for places that require a degree, then who will do the jobs that do not require a degree. I notice now how most lower paying jobs are being taken over by younger people who are in highschool or college. They work them as a part time job but not as a career. These jobs could be the cashier at the grocery store or the clerk at a clothing store. Many jobs that do not require a degree are ones that have low pay or are undesireable by most people. The garbage men have a hard job. They go around picking up heavy trash cans and piles of trash for hours. They do this in the rain, snow, cold, or heat. These people have a job that most of us would not want to do, so instead of paying them a decent salary we pay them little compared to most who graduate with a college degree.
If everyone got an education beyound highschool who would do the manual labor jobs that most see as undesirable? We need people of all different education levels and economic levels in order for our society to function.
I had to interview a teacher for another one of my classes. When interviewing her I asked her why the electives are not included in their school anymore. I wanted to know if it was because of the funding of the schools or maybe the one of the philosophies. I was told schools are removing electives because of the amount of material the children have to learn for the school year. She said there were blocks assigned so that the children will recieve large amounts of time on their subjects. She said they spend majority of their time on Reading because over 50% of the class was having a hard time with their comprehension skills. It is very important for them to read because when the children take their leap test, she is not going to be able to read for them. A lot of the children are having problems understanding simple instructions and if one word changes in their directions, it throws the rest of their work off for the day. I may be wrong but I believe the reason the schools are failing because we do not allow them to have music or art. Music is one of the greatest electives we use to have in public schools because it teaches the students to count without them even recognizing it. In reference to art, since most people have computers at home, we can print out different Art assignments for the students. When teaching, try to figure out a way to relate it to art. Maybe if we give them those options, they can somehow do better on standardize testing and bring up the scores.
At one of the schools I observed at I was talking to the teacher and asking her when her 1st grade students go to recess and she responded to me that they go after lunch for only ten min. I asked her why was the recess so short and she told me because they have to have time for all the electives the school has for them to offer. Apparently each first grader gets to have a chance for french, guidance, music, art and PE. I though that was really neat. The students are not only getting their curriculum done in the classroom but they are going outside of the classroom and extending their education. Also, since recess is only ten min. the students still get an opportunity to release some energy in PE.
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