I want you to begin focusing on the ways in which what you are seeing in your observations, schooling experience, etc. mirrors or contrasts with what you are reading in Shame of the Nation. I want us to move beyond anectodal stories to relating what we've read about the history of public education, our discussions in class, and your observations in your two environments. I would also like for you to begin making direct reference to your readings (citing page number and/or author). This is an important skill for teachers - too many times we say "Research says...." but we don't quote that research. Let's begin doing so!
Looking forward to our discussion on the Kozol book...he is one of the most engaging authors I've ever read.
dr.m
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Hello ladies! Let's kick this off.... I thumbed through my notes in Shame of the Nation, and I'm still not sure where I stand on all of this. While reading page 52, by the time I got to the bottom of the page I was furious. I understand that preschool helps children socially, but in no way do I believe that it is critical to exceed in kindergarten. Where are the parents in this? I don't care if you only have a 6th grade education, you should at least know your colors, shapes, and numbers to pass on to your children before kindergarten. Why is this the taxpayers problem and why are children expected to be so smart by the age of 5? Isn't this what kindergarten is for - getting to know how school really works?
On another note, page 144 quotes the principal of a school in Harlem, "Many (students) are in foster care-their parents may have died of AIDS or are in jail." This struck a nerve in me concerning the lack of government and distribution of taxpayers money. These children are never given a chance to exceed unless they are pure genius and stand out from the get-go. On page 61, Kozol says "We do not ask most children in America to summon up heroic qualities like these in order to prevail." Why do only a small percentage of minorities get into these "nicer" schools? I could have jumped through the book and slapped the boy (no, I would never hit a student) on page 140 saying "I'm not trying to hide the fact that I think I'm better than the rest." These are the students that are going to be running our country with their parents' "connections" one day! He already thinks that he is better because he's in a higher status school. He fails to realize how he got into the school and that the ones that did not get in were probably not given a very fair chance. These are the students that are going to be running our country with their parents' "connections" one day!
So, to connect the two issues I have mentioned... I don't know the answer. The students with connections are in the best schools at such a young age that they do better in kindergarten and so on. The majority of the students that do not, remain behind struggeling not only in their school work, but within the school itself. Any money that the school does receive will more than likely have to be used on repairs in the building over teacher pay and technology. Ok, I'm not gonna tackle that one right now.
See ya'll in class next week!
I agree with Carrie that kindergarten is when a child learns how school works. It should be the parents responsibility to make sure a child has a certain knowledge before they enter school. Kozol raises a good question on the top of pg. 57 where he asks if there is any good way to measure the return on your investment for preschools. I think that some preschools do help children by teaching then their numbers, shapes, colors, and alphabet. If schools try to teach more than this to a child at that age you may be asking to much of them. Children do need to learn social skills but some of those skills cannot be taught in a classroom but only by interaction in the realworld.
Nicely done, Carrie and Aissalyn...you are quoting the text, synthesizing your own thoughts and raising provocative issues...where are your classmates???
dr.m
So after reading a few things popped out at me. On page 286 it talks about the children’s writings that are on the walls in the hall. It says they “are without prior editing.” While observing at my first school, I noticed that the teacher had to edit all their papers, or short stories, before they could be put on the wall, and only a few were hung up. Also, not all student artwork is hung up only “the best.”
At the bottom of page 153 to the top of page 154, it talks about apart of the school being condemned. I remember awhile back my aunt telling me that the gym at Lee High had to be torn down because it was condemned. She also told me that part of the school had been condemned also, but it was still being used. I work with a guy that goes there, and when I asked him about it, he told me that part of the school had recently been repaired. It never occurred to me that so many schools were having this horrible problem.
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that not all schools receive the same funding and support. It is mind bottling that anyone can think that this is okay. It has to be illegal for the funds to be distributed the way they are.
I like how in chapter 12 and the Epilogue they talk about the social aspect of integrated schools. The programs where they bus students to different schools seems neat. To stop programs that allow this progress seems wrong, especially when they are working.
First of all I want to comment on what Heather said about the teacher corrected the children's artwork before hanging it up on the wall, and even then, only hanging up the "best". Where did you observe that? Because one of the school's I observed at did the same thing! The teacher kept saying for them to do their best and make it look good because they were going to be hanging them up, and then when the children thought they were done, she would tell them to go fix something or add something to make it look better. I couldn't believe it. When I was in elementary school, the teachers never did that! They let you be creative, and loved what everyone drew. When did it become a requirement to look good. They are 5-7 years old! I also agree that it should absolutely be illegal to give some schools more money than others. And they wonder why some schools are failing...
On page 113, talking about how kids in 4th and 5th grade had to have test preparation for 5 hours on Wednesdays and Thursdays, AND have to go to school for 3 hours on Saturday for more!! That is crazy!! In the last class, we talked about how everyone's test taking skills are different, and that most are not good at it. Someone even mentioned that it made them so worried, that they would become physically sick. Much like the little girl on page 113. There is way too much stress on them to pass.
Also, over the weekend I met a teacher from a nearby school who teaches students that are 16-18 and still in the 8th grade. He was talking about how far behind they were, and how they didn't even know how to pick a noun out of a sentence. Is this because their previous teachers just kept passing them through? Will they get held back again if they don't improve this year, or just keep getting passed through?? I'm afraid of what the answer might be.
In class we were talking about how students can only be failed or held back one year. Does this not include middle school? If this is so how come we have 18 and 19 year olds in the eight grade. I have a cousin three years older than me, and I still remember the day that I passed him up in grade level. I was in ninth grade when he was still in eight. He eventually dropped out, and unfortunately everything that you read about drop outs eventually happened to him.
We will talk briefly about how schools are funded (i.e.property taxes, lotteries, casinos, etc) and how and why this happens and continues to happen.
Glad you all are asking tough questions...there are no easy answers, or "answers" at all perhaps...
See you in class tomorrow,
dr.m
I must say we are lucky to have up to date schools in our areas although some of them have not yet been updated. Reading the book helped to bring me out of my shell. I did not know there were children who have never known what white neighborhoods look like. For example on page 15, the student asked the teacher "What's it like"... "Over there?". It is so hard to imagine being stuck in a box. After reading page 37, I understand why children of minority families are dropping out in such high rates. As the second to last sentence on page 37 states, "It is harder to convience young people they can learn when they are cordoned off by a society that isn't sure they can." If we do not try to make living conditions better, we cannot expect them to do well in school; especially if their only expectations is to remain in the location they live at this time. Most parents expect their children to have access to do the things they did not have the opportunity to do. How can they succeed when they do not have access to go to school for a full day as page 41 describes a high school which does not have enough seats for the children to be seated. It seems as if America is setting minories up to fail. We need to reconstruct our school systems as a whole. We need to revamp the way our government spends money. Here we are fighting a war in Iraq for their rights, when we have a war going on in our own area in the school system alone. If we use the money we spend on war for education alone, imagine the difference it will make in our children lives. Even with the education being a little better in our area, we do not have enough money to make sure each child has a book in every subject. And to think.. We expect our children to pass a standardized test which contains material most of them will not get a chance to see. I agree, teachers should be held to a curriculum and we need a way to prove they are teaching the students all the proper materials they need. I don't agree with us failing our children for their lack of understanding or not knowing. I must admit, I was a little relieved when the Epilogue stated some of the schools were shut down and the children were sent to other schools. However, it is hard to understand why some of the whites would not send their children to a school with minorities. I do not believe it should matter anymore if blacks and whites get a chance to go to school together. We need to start an educational war. The Civil War should have been about ensuring minorities have the same equality of education instead of desegration. If this was done, maybe we could have corrected our school system... Making sure all children recieve the same type of education regardless of nationality, race, or even income.
Like Tremaine, when I read very early on in the book about the little girl asking what it was like "over there," I was taken aback, and almost didn't know how to respond, almost. I guess I just haven't been as exposed to certain things in the world that others have, and that makes me a little nervous in going in to teach. I know we're talking about things like using students' differences in the classroom, but what if I'm just not good at it? It is probably one of those things that you just learn as you move through your career, it's just a scary thing to think about.
And moving to the preschool/kindergarten points that are brought up on and around 57, I never went to preschool because at the time it was for socialization purposes, and I was in daycare from almost the time I was born, so I didn't need it for those reasons. I am observing at a preschool right now and it doesn't seem like much when you're seeing what they're doing (learning to write their letters, cutting/pasting, etc) when you stop to think that some of these kids just turned 4, others 5, and some even are still 3, WHY do they need to learn how to write the whole alphabet (uppercase and lowercase letters) by the time they're in kindergarten? I think it might be safe to say that most of us didn't learn these things so early on, so why now are we deciding that these things are supposed to be learned now?
There were so many points and connections between the book and the readings, and after I move on to my second school, I'm sure more so my observations, that I could go on and on.
Something that really bothered me was on page 131. They talk about basically forcing our students to "focus on memorizing information, then regurgitating the fact" instead of finding "connections...new patterns, imagin[ing] new possibilities." All of this is so true, even in some college courses. I know that in my biology 1001 class last semester, my professor clearly did not care about our class; she was "only here for fruit fly research" (haha). But seriously, she did not teach us, and this forced us to figure out her tests, memorize the quiz questions, then regurgitate the quiz answers on the test. If you asked me anything today about biology, I probably would not be able to answer you. As the book says "Choosing the right answer to someone else's question is what counts." We need to get back to where our students are actually learning what we teach, and not just learning the tests because when they get out in the real world and get jobs, they wont be filling in little circles on scantrons anymore.
Yesterday in class our discussion really put a thorn in my side... Shouldn't all public education have the same amount of funding?! I came from a district that has really good public schools. I knew that there were schools that had their fair share of problems, but it wasn't until I came to LSU that I really realized the amount of schools that were in no condition to school children. Students are at scool the majority of their day... no wonder so many kids hate school and don't want to go and no wonder why so many low socieo schools (and some high socieo) are having trouble and have high drop out rates! School should be a safe- haven; I loved school and it kills me to know that most students don't get to experience the same schooling I came from... Just because I live in a wealthy area. Kids cannot help where they come from and they cannot help the circumstances that their parents raised them in, but they are the ones suffering and that doesn't sit well in my stomach. During class yesterday I made the comment that as teachers we shouldn't have to make up for the bad job that a students parents did. I thought about my statement the rest of the day and I even called my mom, who has been in the public school system for 25 years, I came to the conclusion that I am wrong in some aspects of what I said. As teachers we have to give those students love and affection that they have never had before, we have to put it in or hearts that we may be the only positive role model in a student's life. Its not our responsibility to exactly "raise" a student, but it is our responsibility to nurture the students in our classroom and help them grow (intellectually and through accomplishments). We must see that evry child can be taught; no matter what and we as techers within a school and as parents we are the ones who set an example for the children and we set the foundation.
I strongly believe what emily said. My mom has also been a teacher in public schools for quite some time now and we have many discussion about major issues that schools are faced with. One of which emily was talking about: nurturing and giving to the students what they otherwise may not have. And I'm not just talking about material things, but more about the emotional aspect. We talked about in class how we as teachers need to suck it up and deal with what has been given. Here's a question that I have: what if we teachers do not have the the money to give to these low socio schools? We may have great plans that we want to fulfill in our classrooms but what if we simply cannot afford to spend $700 on neccessary school supplies for our children?? Which brings me back to what Emily said...if we cannot afford the material things, we can compensate by providing the students with a place they can call "home", a place they feel comfortable and safe, a place were expectations are set high and the children WANT to meet those expectations, a place were students can gain an understanding of "where my life is heading" (147). On page 146-147 a student expresses his deep concern about his future: "This subject is upsetting to me...these questions that you're asking me make me scared." I believe we need to take care of these basic needs before anything else.
And they finally debate over school issues!!! They agree FED GOV should provide more money!!! They even addressed our college tuitions!! Think we are going in the way of Vouchers so we can choose the school we feel is best for our children.
So much to comment on...
What Tremaine said it's hard to believe there are little black kids out there who have never seen white kids "over there p. 15". I grew up in small town Ohio and I really don't remember seeing little black kids as a child. The difference is I wasn't afraid of a little black kid if I saw one which makes you wonder why little black kids would be afraid of little white kids? What are they being taught to make them afraid? And who is teaching it? Is is being taught by the media, at home, by teachers?
Bussing! I do not want my children to have to sit on a bus for an hour or more to go to school anywhere! I doubt any black family would want that either. I can't reallys speak for other people though. It is not economicially sound and it is terribly inconvenient to bus children all over God's green earth to get them to school. I really just don't see this as a viable option. I think a more even distribution of funding would be much more beneficial. Was anyone else absolutely mortified to hear about schools being forced to operate when sewage backs up on a regular basis into the school buildings and classes being held in closets? These are not the things we envision as future teachers as the "norm". I guess they aren't. But to even know they exist anywhere is angst provoking. In agreement with Carrie about Pre-K I think an emphasis should be put on social skills with a minor in academics. There is such a large gap between the children that get into pre-k and some don't attend at all. Some have been in day care since they were six weeks old and already know all their shapes, colors, etc and have social skills and some haven't been taught a thing. That year should be used to try to even the playing field. You have some kids that still cry even day when they come to school. It is a huge adjustment for them. To expect too much academcially is too much. Then the kids that don't attend pre-k at all are so far behind in kindergarten that their chances for success are really diminished. And just to revisit the theme of teachers telling kids to do their best and then continuously correcting the kids papers, this is a complex issue. First, everyone gets that this is damaging to the children. Then you have teachers that feel that their job quality is reflected by what they hang on that bulletin board outside their room (even if it's a pre-k or k class). Then you have testing always looming which takes away the room for creativity and room to make mistakes. It always has to be right and it always has to be done one way. That enough for me now ladies, see ya in class.
I would like to comment on sarah's last comment. I felt the exact same way when i read this section. We definitely need to get away from the curriculum a certain extent and stop making children memorize and make them actually learn. I also could tell you absolutley nothing about Biology. However, if I was given an amazing teacher in high school when I was just beginning I might feel completley different about Biology. It really depends on us as teachers to help these children get as much as they can out of all subjects. We need to bring out the best of each and every student. Memorizing will not help matters at all.
Ladies...just a note of caution...I think we need to be VERY careful about assuming that children who come from poor homes do not have people who care about them, role models, or a value of education. Just because a child comes from a home where there is only one parent, does not make them emotionally defficient. Just because a child comes from a poor home, does not make her emotionally poor (or mean that her parents do not love her). Just because our children are from a poor home or from a racially/culturally diverse environment, does not mean thehy come from a home where education is not important.
These are all DEFICIT ways of thinking - as viewing students as "missing something" - more over, it is ASSUMING that they are intellectually, spiritually, emotionally poor when really, they are only economically poor.
POOR does not equal incapable, unloved, and uncultured. Remember, WindWolf in our readings...?
Careful of your language...we are not teachers to be "saviors" we are teachers to help children learn in this journey we call life.
dr.m
i know this is not exactly on the track of what anyone was saying, but i must say that i agree with everyone's comments, and i had a hard time thinking about what ot write... but i'm just going to throw this out there, that before reading shame of the nation i had absolutely NO clue about the conditions of some public schools in america.my mom teaches in the public school system in jefferson parish, and i still had no idea about how awful some conditions are...
it makes me sad, and that much more thankful for the education i recieved and the sacrifices my parents made to provide me with that.
i don't there there is a good parent out there who wouldn't try to do the best that they can for their children's education. it's just sad that some parents can't really do or change much. they are forced to use these schools in awful conditions... and that is just sad
this is not right. even if public schools aren't as nice/good as private schools, they should not be in this deplorable condition that they are in (and i personally think that public schools should be setting the bar as far as education goes, and private school should be the ones that are trying to keep up)
In the first few pages of chapter 7, Kozol describes a school through the papers of his students. These papers descibe a school of broken windows, old textbooks, and dirty rooms. Although he says that some of these conditions in inner city shcools have changed, some of them have not and are worse than what his students have descibed. I knew that some schools had old textbooks or were in need of repair, but I never knew that there were some schools to this extent. I was shocked to read this and also see examples in the video we watched in class. Something needs to be done to help these schools because every students deserves the best education possible and with these conditons students are not being allowed that opportunity. Some responsiblity should be on the teachers to help provide their students with proper resources and material to learn but there is only so much a teacher can do.
Chevonne if u could only hear some of the stories we had to hear when we were children. If you could hear the blacks talking about how the whites hold the keys to our future.. And it is easy to believe it because a while back there were these white men who shot at some blacks on Wooddale and yelled the racial slurs. They were released back into society as if nothing happened but when the high school students in Jena jumped on the white children, they almost faced life in prison. All the men had to do is write a letter stating how sorry they were, but it took thousands of all nationalities to fight for the young men in Jena. To be honest, when we were watching "A Lesson Before Dying", it was very hard for me to watch it because as a child thats the kind of things we had to watch so that we could be made aware of this suppose to be horrible world. If I watch something like that, I would rather watch a movie with a happy ending. We were reminded daily how lucky we were to not be reminded of the color of our skin. Our neighborhood was racially divided so it was easy for us to get along with other races cause it doesnt really matter. What does the color of your skin mean anyway? When you make children watch movies like that, it makes them afraid. I haven't had any bad experiences, yet.. Hopefully I won't have to experience it either. My peers both white and black helped me overcome my father's prejudice feelings.
Like Katherine said, I too did not realize how bad some of the public schools are in America. I went to public schools all my life and my school and the surrounding public schools were not in any of the conditions that we saw in the movie. However, it was not the nicest school. I also agree with Katherine when she says that the majority of parents want their kids to get a great education. Not only do they want an education for them but hopefully they want to be able to send their kids to public school for free, if the school is well enough for someone to attend. So like i mentioned in class last week, we should really take a step back and look at public schools in America and see why the students in the school system are dropping out or failing. It may or may not be because of the conditions of the school. But it is our best as teachers to go into whatever environment we have to and do our best to motivate the students into learning their best no matter how bad the school may be. I mean going to school to get an education is the main reason why they go right?
I forget what chapter, but towards the beginning of the book the issue of kindergarten is brought up and exceeding in kindergarten. I personally believe that it is really hard for a child to exceed very high when its some of their first time to be away from their home environment with their family. It takes a lot of getting use to. Teachers should set goals for their students based on what they knew coming into the classroom. Studets (esp at such a young age) progress at very different rates.
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